A ray of light for Labour, but is it too late? Sunday Herald Editorial IT HAS taken nine years since devolution, but finally a Labour MSP has had the courage to spell out the parlous state of his Scottish party. Tom McCabe, the former finance minister, has written a blistering article for this newspaper in which he criticises his colleagues at Westminster as "resentful and contemptuous" of the Scottish parliament, adding that they simply have no clue as to why Scottish Labour lost the last Holyrood election. He also insists that Wendy Alexander's replacement must lead the Scottish party, not just the parliamentary group in Edinburgh; back more financial powers for Holyrood; and support abolition of the council tax. Only fundamental reform, he argued, can save Labour from slipping "to the fringes" of political life.
This is stirring stuff from a politician who has always seemed more radical than he was prepared to admit in public. His impassioned, almost apocalyptic, words also happen to be correct. Since 1999 this paper has argued that the control-freakery of Labour MPs at Westminster towards the Scottish parliament was damaging devolution as much as it was harming one political party. On issues from free personal care to the smoking ban, UK Labour have tried to sabotage or frustrate attempts by Scottish Labour to forge distinctive policies in areas devolved to Holyrood.
Labour's chickens came home to roost in May last year. The victorious SNP, unencumbered by a recalcitrant group of refuseniks in London, were free to develop policies on any issue of their choosing. Jack McConnell's party, by contrast, were always looking over their shoulders, fearful of the Westminster ministers and special advisers flown up to run the Labour campaign.
McCabe's advice to whoever succeeds Alexander is also sage. The leader must speak for the Scottish party as a whole, not just the group in Edinburgh. He or she must get on to the front foot of the constitutional debate by supporting extra financial powers for the parliament. The new leader should also challenge the UK government, of whatever hue, when the need arises.
McCabe is also correct when he says Labour have not fully grasped the meaning of their defeat in 2007. Time is running out for them to do so. Many might argue it is irrelevant whether they do or not; that Scotland is in the middle of an irreversible political realignment that will confine that once dominant party to the political wilderness.
That may or may not be the case. It is, however, in the country's interests that we have a coherent and effective opposition. It is in no-one's interests that Labour are prevented from engaging fully with the important debates that will influence Scotland's future, not least the decisions that have to be taken on the UK constitution.
It remains to be seen which, if any, of the three candidates for the Labour leadership at Holyrood is capable of pushing through the radical changes necessary if Scottish Labour are ever to challenge the SNP again. Cathy Jamieson, a decent and likeable MSP, as yet shows few signs of having the stomach for a fight with Westminster. Iain Gray, while intelligent and presentable, does not seem to accept such changes are desirable. Only Andy Kerr accepts reform is essential. However, it is not clear whether he has the support to turn his pledge into reality.
It is vital to the party that someone understands the scale of the problems facing it and develops a strategy for tackling them. Given Tom McCabe's article, it is a pity that four candidates are not going for the top job.
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Posted by: A_Scottish_Voice on 11:36pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Yes.
Posted by: Jimmy the Pie on 11:39pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Tom McCabe should join the SNP.
[bold]www.snp.org Membership from £1/month[/bold]
Tom McCabe should join the SNP.
www.snp.org Membership from £1/month Posted by: Wilhelm on 11:40pm Sat 2 Aug 08
In the imortal words of Kirsty Wark, liebour is picking fights with london.
In the imortal words of Kirsty Wark, liebour is picking fights with london.
Posted by: Steve A, Independence is on its way on 11:50pm Sat 2 Aug 08
[quote]It remains to be seen which, if any, of the three candidates for the Labour leadership at Holyrood is capable of pushing through the radical changes necessary if Scottish Labour are ever to challenge the SNP again.[/quote]
What about backing Scottish independence ? That's a starter for 10 !
It remains to be seen which, if any, of the three candidates for the Labour leadership at Holyrood is capable of pushing through the radical changes necessary if Scottish Labour are ever to challenge the SNP again.
What about backing Scottish independence ? That's a starter for 10 !
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:57pm Sat 2 Aug 08
McCabe's Babes[quote]His colleagues at Westminster as "resentful and contemptuous" of the Scottish parli
ament[/quote][quote]that they̳
;
4;simply have no clue as to why Scottish Labour lost the last Holyrood election.[/quote] [quote]Only fundamental reform, he argued, can save Labour from slipping "to the fringes" of political life.[/quote] [quote]McCabe is̳
;
4;also correct
 when he
 says Labour have not fully grasped the meaning of their defeat in 2007.[/quote] [quote]Scotland is in the middle of an irreversible political realignment that will confine that once dominant party to the political wilderness.[/quote] [quote]It is vital to the party that someone understands the scale of the problems facing it and develops a strategy for tackling them.[/quote]
[bold]Or put another way: "Wurrr awe [bold]DOOMED![/bold] !!"[/bold]
McCabe's Babes
His colleagues at Westminster as "resentful and contemptuous" of the Scottish parli
ament
that they̳
;
4;simply have no clue as to why Scottish Labour lost the last Holyrood election.
Only fundamental reform, he argued, can save Labour from slipping "to the fringes" of political life.
McCabe is̳
;
4;also correct
 when he
 says Labour have not fully grasped the meaning of their defeat in 2007.
Scotland is in the middle of an irreversible political realignment that will confine that once dominant party to the political wilderness.
It is vital to the party that someone understands the scale of the problems facing it and develops a strategy for tackling them.
Or put another way: "Wurrr awe DOOMED! !!"
Posted by: John Gall, Scotland on 11:58pm Sat 2 Aug 08
[bold]The SNP at last are reaping the benefit of being true to Scotland through thick and thin. All ex members of failing Unionist parties are welcome but you have to sacrifice personal gain for the good of Scotland[/bold]
The SNP at last are reaping the benefit of being true to Scotland through thick and thin. All ex members of failing Unionist parties are welcome but you have to sacrifice personal gain for the good of Scotland Posted by: Steve A, Independence is on its way on Sun 3 Aug 08
Oh silly me suggesting that liebour back scottish independence when the liebour are not actually a scottish party !
Suppose they would have to pick a big fight with westmonster first .but as we all know they dont have the brass balls for that.
Goodbye nuliebour it was not a pleasure !
Oh silly me suggesting that liebour back scottish independence when the liebour are not actually a scottish party !
Suppose they would have to pick a big fight with westmonster first .but as we all know they dont have the brass balls for that.
Goodbye nuliebour it was not a pleasure !
Posted by: Observer on 12:11am Sun 3 Aug 08
This is all rather neat isn't it. Mc Cabe writing for the Sunday Herald an article so in tune with what they say, it was bound to happen, a push from within Labour for more autonomy, but it won't work. Brown is a Stalinist control freak par excellence, and won't budge an inch. If they want autonomy, they will have to break away.
This is all rather neat isn't it. Mc Cabe writing for the Sunday Herald an article so in tune with what they say, it was bound to happen, a push from within Labour for more autonomy, but it won't work. Brown is a Stalinist control freak par excellence, and won't budge an inch. If they want autonomy, they will have to break away.
Posted by: Vote for Scotlands Future, Vote for the SNP on 12:36am Sun 3 Aug 08
REad the Tom McCabe article and you will find [quote]A leader who wants to have responsibility for raising the money their government spends and be chastened by that accountability in the process.[/quote]
[bold]Tom McCabe is calling for Fiscal Independence for Scotland[/bold] - don't they want to have a referendum first??
REad the Tom McCabe article and you will find
A leader who wants to have responsibility for raising the money their government spends and be chastened by that accountability in the process.
Tom McCabe is calling for Fiscal Independence for Scotland - don't they want to have a referendum first??
Posted by: Lowperdowg, Sound of Sleat on 12:37am Sun 3 Aug 08
Good night everyone.
Sweet dreams!
Good night everyone.
Sweet dreams!
Posted by: Ron, Just Down The Road on 1:00am Sun 3 Aug 08
What is it McCabe wants the new Labour Group Leader in the Scottish Parliament to lead?
"He also insists that Wendy Alexander's replacement must lead the Scottish party, not just the parliamentary group in Edinburgh......"
This may come as a bit of a shock to the man, but there is no such party as the Scottish Labour Party. Period!
There is the Labour Party, headquartered in London with an outlook to match. and the leader of that party is one, Gordon Brown. If Tom McCabe has suddenly seen the light on the road to Edinburgh he knows what to do about it. It is not only Scotland which needs independence. It is the parts of the "Scottish" political system which owe their allegiance to, and take their orders from, a London political elite which is still trying to act as though The British Empire is a force to be reckoned with in the world, and to which the interests of Scotland are expendable even if Scotland's assets are not.
What is it McCabe wants the new Labour Group Leader in the Scottish Parliament to lead?
"He also insists that Wendy Alexander's replacement must lead the Scottish party, not just the parliamentary group in Edinburgh......"
This may come as a bit of a shock to the man, but there is no such party as the Scottish Labour Party. Period!
There is the Labour Party, headquartered in London with an outlook to match. and the leader of that party is one, Gordon Brown. If Tom McCabe has suddenly seen the light on the road to Edinburgh he knows what to do about it. It is not only Scotland which needs independence. It is the parts of the "Scottish" political system which owe their allegiance to, and take their orders from, a London political elite which is still trying to act as though The British Empire is a force to be reckoned with in the world, and to which the interests of Scotland are expendable even if Scotland's assets are not.
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 1:25am Sun 3 Aug 08
Yep too late looks like
they are going to tear themselves to bits which
will be the best favour they could ever do
for Scotland :
It looks like the 6 week labour contest
for leadership of the Holyrood Labour MSPs -
is going to be increasingly entertaining -
I smell a schism and an implosion on the way.
"Last night a senior member of the Kerr team launched an intemperate attack on Jamieson, dismissing her as a left-wing “cave woman” who would drag the party"
"“I would rather work for Iain Gray than go back into the caves with some of them,” said Kerr’s aide, referring to Jamieson and her allies. “Cathy and Bill Butler — can you imagine?” "
"I have known Cathy too long to nominate her. I just don’t think she’s up to the job. She’s not bright enough. She’s an old trot."
"MSP Karen Gillon, said “wee Cathy” had been a grave let-down as justice minister."
see - tinyurl.com/5ml244
"Andy Kerr's bid to become the next leader of the Scottish Labour party has been damaged by the disclosure that he referred to the post as “the worst job in Scotland”."
see - tinyurl.com/5flcbq
Yep too late looks like
they are going to tear themselves to bits which
will be the best favour they could ever do
for Scotland :
It looks like the 6 week labour contest
for leadership of the Holyrood Labour MSPs -
is going to be increasingly entertaining -
I smell a schism and an implosion on the way.
"Last night a senior member of the Kerr team launched an intemperate attack on Jamieson, dismissing her as a left-wing “cave woman” who would drag the party"
"“I would rather work for Iain Gray than go back into the caves with some of them,” said Kerr’s aide, referring to Jamieson and her allies. “Cathy and Bill Butler — can you imagine?” "
"I have known Cathy too long to nominate her. I just don’t think she’s up to the job. She’s not bright enough. She’s an old trot."
"MSP Karen Gillon, said “wee Cathy” had been a grave let-down as justice minister."
see - tinyurl.com/5ml244
"Andy Kerr's bid to become the next leader of the Scottish Labour party has been damaged by the disclosure that he referred to the post as “the worst job in Scotland”."
see - tinyurl.com/5flcbq
Posted by: Iainbroch, Moray on 1:46am Sun 3 Aug 08
The question has been asked is it to late for Labour? Yes it is!
The question has been asked is it to late for Labour? Yes it is!
Posted by: Vote for Scotlands Future, Vote for the SNP on 1:51am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Steve A[/bold] wrote:
Oh silly me suggesting that liebour back scottish independence when the liebour are not actually a scottish party !
Suppose they would have to pick a big fight with westmonster first .but as we all know they dont have the brass balls for that.
Goodbye nuliebour it was not a pleasure !
[/quote] Your quite right. Of the major parties in Scotland, only one is a Scottish Party - the SNP. All the others are branch offices, where they have elected a leader over their MSP group at Holyrood - nothing more.
Steve A wrote:
Oh silly me suggesting that liebour back scottish independence when the liebour are not actually a scottish party !
Suppose they would have to pick a big fight with westmonster first .but as we all know they dont have the brass balls for that.
Goodbye nuliebour it was not a pleasure !
Your quite right. Of the major parties in Scotland, only one is a Scottish Party - the SNP. All the others are branch offices, where they have elected a leader over their MSP group at Holyrood - nothing more.
Posted by: Vote for Scotlands Future, Vote for the SNP on 2:03am Sun 3 Aug 08
Tom McCabe in his article calls for [quote]A leader who wants to have responsibility for raising the money their government spends and be chastened by that accountability in the process.[/quote]That is Fiscal Autonomy. Not one of the contenders would have the balls go to their masters at Westminster with this.
One wonders why Mr McCabe is asking for this now, when he had the opportunity to go for this when he was Finance Minister?? Talk is cheap when you're sure you don't have to follow it up with action.
Tom McCabe in his article calls for
A leader who wants to have responsibility for raising the money their government spends and be chastened by that accountability in the process.
That is Fiscal Autonomy. Not one of the contenders would have the balls go to their masters at Westminster with this.
One wonders why Mr McCabe is asking for this now, when he had the opportunity to go for this when he was Finance Minister?? Talk is cheap when you're sure you don't have to follow it up with action.
Posted by: Macuistean, On the mainland on 4:36am Sun 3 Aug 08
John F Kennedy once said "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" When Scottish Labour start to think of Scotland and not themselves and their expences, perks, back handers etc then Scotland will have a true opposition. Unfortunately they are only in politics for what they can get out of it.
John F Kennedy once said "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" When Scottish Labour start to think of Scotland and not themselves and their expences, perks, back handers etc then Scotland will have a true opposition. Unfortunately they are only in politics for what they can get out of it.
Posted by: fair enough on 8:16am Sun 3 Aug 08
Here's what will happen.
Labour will lose the UK General Election in 2010 and 10 Scottish MPs will lose their seats.
SNP will hold their referendum on Independence after the UK election and will lose by a narrower margin than expected 54% - 46%.
The SNP will win a second term (possibly in coalition with a minor party)
The Tory Government will pass more powers to Holyrood on agreement that Scots MPs cannot vote on English matters.
MSPs will be in charge of every aspect of Scottish life except defence and foreign policy.
Scots MPs will be almost entirely irrelevant as in general MPs cannot vote on foreign policy - leaving only defence.
The Scottish Labour Party will become more or less independent of the UK Labour Party.
In the meantime, Europe will take more and more powers from Westminster and it will become obvious that Scotland loses out from not being able to represent themselves.
The parties in Scotland will agree that there is a second independence referendum in 2015 and it will be won 68% - 32%
Here's what will happen.
Labour will lose the UK General Election in 2010 and 10 Scottish MPs will lose their seats.
SNP will hold their referendum on Independence after the UK election and will lose by a narrower margin than expected 54% - 46%.
The SNP will win a second term (possibly in coalition with a minor party)
The Tory Government will pass more powers to Holyrood on agreement that Scots MPs cannot vote on English matters.
MSPs will be in charge of every aspect of Scottish life except defence and foreign policy.
Scots MPs will be almost entirely irrelevant as in general MPs cannot vote on foreign policy - leaving only defence.
The Scottish Labour Party will become more or less independent of the UK Labour Party.
In the meantime, Europe will take more and more powers from Westminster and it will become obvious that Scotland loses out from not being able to represent themselves.
The parties in Scotland will agree that there is a second independence referendum in 2015 and it will be won 68% - 32%
Posted by: grandpaw, Glasgow on 8:27am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]fair enough[/bold] wrote:
Here\'s what will happen. Labour will lose the UK General Election in 2010 and 10 Scottish MPs will lose their seats. SNP will hold their referendum on Independence after the UK election and will lose by a narrower margin than expected 54% - 46%. The SNP will win a second term (possibly in coalition with a minor party) The Tory Government will pass more powers to Holyrood on agreement that Scots MPs cannot vote on English matters. MSPs will be in charge of every aspect of Scottish life except defence and foreign policy. Scots MPs will be almost entirely irrelevant as in general MPs cannot vote on foreign policy - leaving only defence. The Scottish Labour Party will become more or less independent of the UK Labour Party. In the meantime, Europe will take more and more powers from Westminster and it will become obvious that Scotland loses out from not being able to represent themselves. The parties in Scotland will agree that there is a second independence referendum in 2015 and it will be won 68% - 32%[/quote] Fair enough.
You are talking a lot of sense here. Can't disagree with anything you say.
fair enough wrote:
Here\'s what will happen. Labour will lose the UK General Election in 2010 and 10 Scottish MPs will lose their seats. SNP will hold their referendum on Independence after the UK election and will lose by a narrower margin than expected 54% - 46%. The SNP will win a second term (possibly in coalition with a minor party) The Tory Government will pass more powers to Holyrood on agreement that Scots MPs cannot vote on English matters. MSPs will be in charge of every aspect of Scottish life except defence and foreign policy. Scots MPs will be almost entirely irrelevant as in general MPs cannot vote on foreign policy - leaving only defence. The Scottish Labour Party will become more or less independent of the UK Labour Party. In the meantime, Europe will take more and more powers from Westminster and it will become obvious that Scotland loses out from not being able to represent themselves. The parties in Scotland will agree that there is a second independence referendum in 2015 and it will be won 68% - 32%
Fair enough.
You are talking a lot of sense here. Can't disagree with anything you say.
Posted by: quite possibly on 8:30am Sun 3 Aug 08
While they are sorting themselves out Labour might also add re engaging with their base as one of the reforms required, though there's little sign of it. Why have they ignored the way of life and values of the people who used to vote for them?
While they are sorting themselves out Labour might also add re engaging with their base as one of the reforms required, though there's little sign of it. Why have they ignored the way of life and values of the people who used to vote for them?
Posted by: Rab The Ranter, Ayrshire on 8:55am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Macuistean[/bold] wrote:
John F Kennedy once said "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" When Scottish Labour start to think of Scotland and not themselves and their expences, perks, back handers etc then Scotland will have a true opposition. Unfortunately they are only in politics for what they can get out of it.[/quote] They are ALL in "it" only for what they can get out of it.
Not one piece of political lowlife is any better than the other. Don't let any party convince you otherwise.
Slimeball SNP, Louse Libs, Lowlife Labour and Tainted Tories.
A devalued government in a devalued parliament [italic]in a devalued democracy[/italic] .
Vermin the lot!
Macuistean wrote:
John F Kennedy once said "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" When Scottish Labour start to think of Scotland and not themselves and their expences, perks, back handers etc then Scotland will have a true opposition. Unfortunately they are only in politics for what they can get out of it.
They are ALL in "it" only for what they can get out of it.
Not one piece of political lowlife is any better than the other. Don't let any party convince you otherwise.
Slimeball SNP, Louse Libs, Lowlife Labour and Tainted Tories.
A devalued government in a devalued parliament
in a devalued democracy .
Vermin the lot!
Posted by: Free Thinker, North Lanarkshire on 9:00am Sun 3 Aug 08
fair enough on 8:16am today
I disagree with your analysis.
This is my prediction:
General Election in 2010 where 39 SNP MP’s will be returned.
Shortly after the referendum on independence will return a resounding ‘YES’.
We all party for a week.
Scotland and it’s people are masters of their own destiny.
SLAB melt into insignificance.
Kirsty Wark is refused entry at the border.
fair enough on 8:16am today
I disagree with your analysis.
This is my prediction:
General Election in 2010 where 39 SNP MP’s will be returned.
Shortly after the referendum on independence will return a resounding ‘YES’.
We all party for a week.
Scotland and it’s people are masters of their own destiny.
SLAB melt into insignificance.
Kirsty Wark is refused entry at the border.
Posted by: Willie on 9:01am Sun 3 Aug 08
In the face of a Tory tidal wave looming in England, I would not like to be a Labour candidate in Scotland saying vote for me, I will be your man in opposition who will deliver.
No, I think I would be deferring to a party that can, and does deliver for Scotland.
That said, said Labour candidates may have no choice in the matter because the electorate will decide.
In the face of a Tory tidal wave looming in England, I would not like to be a Labour candidate in Scotland saying vote for me, I will be your man in opposition who will deliver.
No, I think I would be deferring to a party that can, and does deliver for Scotland.
That said, said Labour candidates may have no choice in the matter because the electorate will decide.
Posted by: LEGION, ALBA on 9:16am Sun 3 Aug 08
Fine words. Theres just yin wee problem....is the Sunday Herald seriously suggesting that any of the 3 fvckwits, currently backstabbing their way to "Heid-Banana, Scotch Branch of London Labour", are in the mould of this article? LOL
It's Time. The Independence Generation are on the march :-)
Fine words. Theres just yin wee problem....is the Sunday Herald seriously suggesting that any of the 3 fvckwits, currently backstabbing their way to "Heid-Banana, Scotch Branch of London Labour", are in the mould of this article? LOL
It's Time. The Independence Generation are on the march :-)
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 9:16am Sun 3 Aug 08
# fair enough.
Let me put forward another view.
NuLab continue to languish in the polls.
GB stays.
Westminster becomes more intransigent towards Scotland.
Significant defections (at all levels from NuLab.
Defectors realise, ala Jim Sillars, that a new SLP is not viable at this point, but will be after Independence.
2010, NuLabour routed both north and south of the border.
2010, Independence Referendum, Yes vote (60%).
2011/12 Independence Day.
2012, foundation of new Scottish Labour Party.
This, I believe, is a more likely scenario.
# fair enough.
Let me put forward another view.
NuLab continue to languish in the polls.
GB stays.
Westminster becomes more intransigent towards Scotland.
Significant defections (at all levels from NuLab.
Defectors realise, ala Jim Sillars, that a new SLP is not viable at this point, but will be after Independence.
2010, NuLabour routed both north and south of the border.
2010, Independence Referendum, Yes vote (60%).
2011/12 Independence Day.
2012, foundation of new Scottish Labour Party.
This, I believe, is a more likely scenario.
Posted by: Rab The Ranter, Ayrshire on 9:23am Sun 3 Aug 08
[bold]Let me put forward my view.[/bold]
Typical Scots will sit around and pick their 4rses while the sun shines.
[italic][bold]Nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all
The needle returns to the start of the song
And we all sing along like before
Nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all
They'll burn down the synagogues at six o'clock
And we'll all go along like before[/bold] [/italic]
Let me put forward my view.
Typical Scots will sit around and pick their 4rses while the sun shines.
Nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all
The needle returns to the start of the song
And we all sing along like before
Nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all
They'll burn down the synagogues at six o'clock
And we'll all go along like before Posted by: David, East Kilbride on 9:25am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Free Thinker[/bold] wrote:
fair enough on 8:16am today I disagree with your analysis. This is my prediction: General Election in 2010 where 39 SNP MP’s will be returned. Shortly after the referendum on independence will return a resounding ‘YES’. We all party for a week. Scotland and it’s people are masters of their own destiny. SLAB melt into insignificance. Kirsty Wark is refused entry at the border. [/quote] Free,
In general I agree with your estimations.
Free Thinker wrote:
fair enough on 8:16am today I disagree with your analysis. This is my prediction: General Election in 2010 where 39 SNP MP’s will be returned. Shortly after the referendum on independence will return a resounding ‘YES’. We all party for a week. Scotland and it’s people are masters of their own destiny. SLAB melt into insignificance. Kirsty Wark is refused entry at the border.
Free,
In general I agree with your estimations.
Posted by: David, East Kilbride on 9:34am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]frank mcbride[/bold] wrote:
# fair enough. Let me put forward another view. NuLab continue to languish in the polls. GB stays. Westminster becomes more intransigent towards Scotland. Significant defections (at all levels from NuLab. Defectors realise, ala Jim Sillars, that a new SLP is not viable at this point, but will be after Independence. 2010, NuLabour routed both north and south of the border. 2010, Independence Referendum, Yes vote (60%). 2011/12 Independence Day. 2012, foundation of new Scottish Labour Party. This, I believe, is a more likely scenario.[/quote] Hi frank..
Just a point .
How much debt will the foundation of a new Scottish Labour carry from the British Labour Party..?
If so will they struggle to even consider such a change.?
Do they disband and start afresh with no financial start up point.?
Will the SSP be the leader of the left in Scotland. ?
Your scenerio is fair assumption.
frank mcbride wrote:
# fair enough. Let me put forward another view. NuLab continue to languish in the polls. GB stays. Westminster becomes more intransigent towards Scotland. Significant defections (at all levels from NuLab. Defectors realise, ala Jim Sillars, that a new SLP is not viable at this point, but will be after Independence. 2010, NuLabour routed both north and south of the border. 2010, Independence Referendum, Yes vote (60%). 2011/12 Independence Day. 2012, foundation of new Scottish Labour Party. This, I believe, is a more likely scenario.
Hi frank..
Just a point .
How much debt will the foundation of a new Scottish Labour carry from the British Labour Party..?
If so will they struggle to even consider such a change.?
Do they disband and start afresh with no financial start up point.?
Will the SSP be the leader of the left in Scotland. ?
Your scenerio is fair assumption.
Posted by: Lachlan, Stirling on 9:56am Sun 3 Aug 08
Tom McCabe perfectly sums up the present downturn in fortunes for the Labour Party in Scotland AND Westminster.
Many posters appear to believe that because the constitutional question is tearing Labour apart, just like it destroyed the Scots Tories, the result of the next UK General Election will lead to Scotland's secession from this unitary state?
However, this is wishful thinking on the part of many SNP supporters.
What is certain is that there is no returning to a centralised UK State and, IF any future government should ever attempt to do so, then
it would undoubtedly only accelarate the process leading to Independence!
The UK Government, of whatever political persuasion, can only continue to fight a rearguard political action and hope that the
question of Independence and the Nationalist Party wanes in years to come?
Tom McCabe perfectly sums up the present downturn in fortunes for the Labour Party in Scotland AND Westminster.
Many posters appear to believe that because the constitutional question is tearing Labour apart, just like it destroyed the Scots Tories, the result of the next UK General Election will lead to Scotland's secession from this unitary state?
However, this is wishful thinking on the part of many SNP supporters.
What is certain is that there is no returning to a centralised UK State and, IF any future government should ever attempt to do so, then
it would undoubtedly only accelarate the process leading to Independence!
The UK Government, of whatever political persuasion, can only continue to fight a rearguard political action and hope that the
question of Independence and the Nationalist Party wanes in years to come?
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Donegal on 9:57am Sun 3 Aug 08
McCabe is a coward. If he felt this way why is it only now that we here about it?
Watching out for his own Rse that is why; waits till there is a catastrophe then says "I told you so" but had neither the guts to do something about it in the past or put himself forward as the "new messiah".
Effing spineless pratt.
McCabe is a coward. If he felt this way why is it only now that we here about it?
Watching out for his own Rse that is why; waits till there is a catastrophe then says "I told you so" but had neither the guts to do something about it in the past or put himself forward as the "new messiah".
Effing spineless pratt.
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 10:02am Sun 3 Aug 08
#Dave.
The new SLP will carry no debt from NuLabour as it will be a new entity.
As far as the "left" goes, I think there will be a coalescence, after the first post-Independence election, even with PR.
#Dave.
The new SLP will carry no debt from NuLabour as it will be a new entity.
As far as the "left" goes, I think there will be a coalescence, after the first post-Independence election, even with PR.
Posted by: albagirl, alba on 10:08am Sun 3 Aug 08
i have no sympathy for anyone in the liebour party. They go hand in hand with their westminster colleagues in exploiting scotland for their own corrupt, self serving ends, entrenched in their union.
i have no sympathy for anyone in the liebour party. They go hand in hand with their westminster colleagues in exploiting scotland for their own corrupt, self serving ends, entrenched in their union.
Posted by: Red Etin on 10:13am Sun 3 Aug 08
"must lead the Scottish party"
Eh? There is no Scottish party. We've already established that, ya numbskull. The party is Labour and it is led by Gordon Brown.
"must lead the Scottish party"
Eh? There is no Scottish party. We've already established that, ya numbskull. The party is Labour and it is led by Gordon Brown.
Posted by: Red Etin on 10:16am Sun 3 Aug 08
It gets better:
"new leader should also challenge the UK government, of whatever hue, when the need arises"
So "Scottish Labour" is to become an official opposition to "UK Labour" - that should help clarify matters. Ay, right.
It gets better:
"new leader should also challenge the UK government, of whatever hue, when the need arises"
So "Scottish Labour" is to become an official opposition to "UK Labour" - that should help clarify matters. Ay, right.
Posted by: murchadh, leodhas on 10:44am Sun 3 Aug 08
There is no chance of Scottish Labour MP's accepting the authority over them of the leader of their party in the parliament they despise. Imagine Cairns, Browne, Darling and Brown himself having to take their line in Scotland from Andy Kerr. It is just not going to happen. There is no way forward for Labour in Holyrood other than as an entirely independent entity. Whether they go down this route or not they are still heading for the fringes for a long time to come unless they can rebuild from the bottom up - and forget their slavish unionism.
There is no chance of Scottish Labour MP's accepting the authority over them of the leader of their party in the parliament they despise. Imagine Cairns, Browne, Darling and Brown himself having to take their line in Scotland from Andy Kerr. It is just not going to happen. There is no way forward for Labour in Holyrood other than as an entirely independent entity. Whether they go down this route or not they are still heading for the fringes for a long time to come unless they can rebuild from the bottom up - and forget their slavish unionism.
Posted by: Rab The Ranter, Ayrshire on 10:50am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]albagirl[/bold] wrote:
i have no sympathy for anyone in the liebour party. They go hand in hand with their westminster colleagues in exploiting scotland for their own corrupt, self serving ends, entrenched in their union.[/quote] ANYONE!
That is a rather broad broom to sweep all of them up together.
I believe that ALL politicians exploit The People for their own corrupt. self serving ends.
I also believe that you are deluded if you think ANY party is "morally perfect". They are all a shower of chancers.
A devalued government in a devalued parliament in a devalued democracy.
VERMIN THE LOT!
albagirl wrote:
i have no sympathy for anyone in the liebour party. They go hand in hand with their westminster colleagues in exploiting scotland for their own corrupt, self serving ends, entrenched in their union.
ANYONE!
That is a rather broad broom to sweep all of them up together.
I believe that ALL politicians exploit The People for their own corrupt. self serving ends.
I also believe that you are deluded if you think ANY party is "morally perfect". They are all a shower of chancers.
A devalued government in a devalued parliament in a devalued democracy.
VERMIN THE LOT!
Posted by: Jock in the Box, EMBRA on 10:58am Sun 3 Aug 08
Labour merely confirm that Westmonster government does not help Scotland,but drains her of valuable resources.
The notion that increased /altered devolution and a bigger pocket money allowance can fix this is insulting in the extreme.
If Tom McCabe really thinks this then he should join the SNP.Otherwise you are every bit as guilty as the WESTMONSTER crew.
Labour merely confirm that Westmonster government does not help Scotland,but drains her of valuable resources.
The notion that increased /altered devolution and a bigger pocket money allowance can fix this is insulting in the extreme.
If Tom McCabe really thinks this then he should join the SNP.Otherwise you are every bit as guilty as the WESTMONSTER crew.
Posted by: Rab The Ranter, Ayrshire on 10:59am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]albagirl[/bold] wrote:
i have no sympathy for anyone in the liebour party. They go hand in hand with their westminster colleagues in exploiting scotland for their own corrupt, self serving ends, entrenched in their union.[/quote] I am always saddened at the way SNP party hacks genuinely believe they are morally “unapproachable”.
I hate to be the barer of bad tidings, but I am afraid your glorious Eck is as big a slime ball as each and every other politician who aspires to rule.
These people are self seeking, self important jumped up wee naebuddys.
They are devalued politicians in a devalued parliament in a devalued democracy.
[bold]VERMIN THE LOT![/bold]
albagirl wrote:
i have no sympathy for anyone in the liebour party. They go hand in hand with their westminster colleagues in exploiting scotland for their own corrupt, self serving ends, entrenched in their union.
I am always saddened at the way SNP party hacks genuinely believe they are morally “unapproachable”.
I hate to be the barer of bad tidings, but I am afraid your glorious Eck is as big a slime ball as each and every other politician who aspires to rule.
These people are self seeking, self important jumped up wee naebuddys.
They are devalued politicians in a devalued parliament in a devalued democracy.
VERMIN THE LOT! Posted by: Jock in the Box, Embra on 11:04am Sun 3 Aug 08
Rab The Ranter, Ayrshire on 10:50am today
You criticise on the basis that tarring all Labour politicians as being the same is a broad statement.
[quote]That is a rather broad broom to sweep all of them up together[/quote]
YOu then employ an even broader broom !
[quote]I believe that ALL politicians exploit The People for their own corrupt. self serving ends.[/quote]
Thats ALL parties then !
[bold]You dont even agree with yourself![/bold]
Rab The Ranter, Ayrshire on 10:50am today
You criticise on the basis that tarring all Labour politicians as being the same is a broad statement.
That is a rather broad broom to sweep all of them up together
YOu then employ an even broader broom !
I believe that ALL politicians exploit The People for their own corrupt. self serving ends.
Thats ALL parties then !
You dont even agree with yourself! Posted by: Scotsgait, www.scotsgait.co.uk on 11:14am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote]IT HAS taken nine years since devolution, but finally a Labour MSP has had the courage to spell out the parlous state of his Scottish party[/quote]
Nine years too late.
Not even the loss of the Scottish Parliamentary election was sufficient to raise concern with the ranks of Scottish Labour. Indeed, if it hadn't been for Glasgow East, they probably would still be living in a dream world believing that May 2007 was a blip.
It wasn't.
__________________
Glasgow East - short term rebellion or long term reality ? Cast your vote in the latest Scotsgait poll
IT HAS taken nine years since devolution, but finally a Labour MSP has had the courage to spell out the parlous state of his Scottish party
Nine years too late.
Not even the loss of the Scottish Parliamentary election was sufficient to raise concern with the ranks of Scottish Labour. Indeed, if it hadn't been for Glasgow East, they probably would still be living in a dream world believing that May 2007 was a blip.
It wasn't.
__________________
Glasgow East - short term rebellion or long term reality ? Cast your vote in the latest Scotsgait poll
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 11:14am Sun 3 Aug 08
Posted by: Observer on 12:11am today
This is all rather neat isn't it. Mc Cabe writing for the Sunday Herald an article so in tune with what they say, it was bound to happen, a push from within Labour for more autonomy, but it won't work. Brown is a Stalinist control freak par excellence, and won't budge an inch. If they want autonomy, they will have to break away.
Thats all true Observer, but McCabe was always seen as THE control freak, the stalinist Lanarkshire strong arm boy of slab, so it is all the more surprising that it comes from him.
Posted by: Observer on 12:11am today
This is all rather neat isn't it. Mc Cabe writing for the Sunday Herald an article so in tune with what they say, it was bound to happen, a push from within Labour for more autonomy, but it won't work. Brown is a Stalinist control freak par excellence, and won't budge an inch. If they want autonomy, they will have to break away.
Thats all true Observer, but McCabe was always seen as THE control freak, the stalinist Lanarkshire strong arm boy of slab, so it is all the more surprising that it comes from him.
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 11:16am Sun 3 Aug 08
# Rab the Ranter.
Rab, what is your involvement in Party politics?
You obviously have strong political views,so if you are not involved, you are just as guilty as those you criticise.
There are many ethical politicians, in all parties; there are also unetheical ones.
IMHO, the main reason for corruption, in politics at every level, is the lack of engagement by ordinary people in the process.
# Rab the Ranter.
Rab, what is your involvement in Party politics?
You obviously have strong political views,so if you are not involved, you are just as guilty as those you criticise.
There are many ethical politicians, in all parties; there are also unetheical ones.
IMHO, the main reason for corruption, in politics at every level, is the lack of engagement by ordinary people in the process.
Posted by: Mike MacKinnon on 12:25pm Sun 3 Aug 08
We have a mini Scottish Parliament that will surely gain in power very shortly. It just occurred to me however, that it seems very unethical for parties in the Scottish Parliament to accept funding from political parties outside of Scotland. Surely these parties are admitting that, when it comes to the crunch, their allegiances are not to the Scottish People, but their paymasters elsewhere?
Why can't Scottish parties raise funds in Scotland?
We have a mini Scottish Parliament that will surely gain in power very shortly. It just occurred to me however, that it seems very unethical for parties in the Scottish Parliament to accept funding from political parties outside of Scotland. Surely these parties are admitting that, when it comes to the crunch, their allegiances are not to the Scottish People, but their paymasters elsewhere?
Why can't Scottish parties raise funds in Scotland?
Posted by: DougtheDug on 12:39pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Tom McCabe isn't going for Labour Leader or Deputy Leader so why this sudden call for a Scottish Labour Leader who will lead all of Labour in Scotland, members, councillors, MSP's and MP's?
Tom McCabe nominated no-one for Leader or Deputy Leader but his article is in tune with Andy Kerr's call for a post more powerful than just the Leader of the Labour MSP's in the Scottish Parliament.
Maybe Tom's looking for a job in Andy Kerr's new shadow cabinet if Andy manages to become leader of the Labour MSP's.
It's amusing. He's calling for something he knows will never happen to get himself into a position of power in a party which is on the ropes in Scotland. It's rats scrabbling for crumbs. Move along folks, move along, nothing to see.
Tom McCabe isn't going for Labour Leader or Deputy Leader so why this sudden call for a Scottish Labour Leader who will lead all of Labour in Scotland, members, councillors, MSP's and MP's?
Tom McCabe nominated no-one for Leader or Deputy Leader but his article is in tune with Andy Kerr's call for a post more powerful than just the Leader of the Labour MSP's in the Scottish Parliament.
Maybe Tom's looking for a job in Andy Kerr's new shadow cabinet if Andy manages to become leader of the Labour MSP's.
It's amusing. He's calling for something he knows will never happen to get himself into a position of power in a party which is on the ropes in Scotland. It's rats scrabbling for crumbs. Move along folks, move along, nothing to see.
Posted by: Rab The Ranter, Ayrshire on 12:39pm Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]frank mcbride[/bold] wrote:
# Rab the Ranter. Rab, what is your involvement in Party politics? You obviously have strong political views,so if you are not involved, you are just as guilty as those you criticise. There are many ethical politicians, in all parties; there are also unetheical ones. IMHO, the main reason for corruption, in politics at every level, is the lack of engagement by ordinary people in the process.[/quote] I don't have to have a "party affiliation" to have a view on politics.
Joe Public (I'm one :o)believe that "in the main", politicians are slime balls who are in "IT" for themselves.
Politicians are in the game to get power, and the last thing they will do is allow decisions to be taken at the lowest possible level.
They all make noises about "engaging" Joe Public and then go ahead with "Their Vision".
That is why people don't vote, that is why people don't get involved, that is why people don't trust politics.
It is not just a matter of supporting one party, its not just a matter of "we great they're p!sh". Views cover many areas and many different opinions, but our multi party system means if you support some views in one party then the rest are krrap. That is what politics and politicians are all about. DIVIDE AND CONTROL.
Hamish was spot on, he said "Look at yous, ye cannae even agree on the colour o' sh!te" That is reality, the system we created is the system that destroys democracy, it is adversarial not inclusive.
It isnae just something you can rattle aff oan a thread here. Where do you start, we have FOUR different voting systems, the vote at 16, multi party system, terms of office.compulsory voting.
Politicians don't want to address issues that will put them OUT of office.
Sorry, but they are all self indulgent vermin, but I will concede one or two in ALL partys are honourable. That is probably because they havenae been found oot yet ;o)
frank mcbride wrote:
# Rab the Ranter. Rab, what is your involvement in Party politics? You obviously have strong political views,so if you are not involved, you are just as guilty as those you criticise. There are many ethical politicians, in all parties; there are also unetheical ones. IMHO, the main reason for corruption, in politics at every level, is the lack of engagement by ordinary people in the process.
I don't have to have a "party affiliation" to have a view on politics.
Joe Public (I'm one :o)believe that "in the main", politicians are slime balls who are in "IT" for themselves.
Politicians are in the game to get power, and the last thing they will do is allow decisions to be taken at the lowest possible level.
They all make noises about "engaging" Joe Public and then go ahead with "Their Vision".
That is why people don't vote, that is why people don't get involved, that is why people don't trust politics.
It is not just a matter of supporting one party, its not just a matter of "we great they're p!sh". Views cover many areas and many different opinions, but our multi party system means if you support some views in one party then the rest are krrap. That is what politics and politicians are all about. DIVIDE AND CONTROL.
Hamish was spot on, he said "Look at yous, ye cannae even agree on the colour o' sh!te" That is reality, the system we created is the system that destroys democracy, it is adversarial not inclusive.
It isnae just something you can rattle aff oan a thread here. Where do you start, we have FOUR different voting systems, the vote at 16, multi party system, terms of office.compulsory voting.
Politicians don't want to address issues that will put them OUT of office.
Sorry, but they are all self indulgent vermin, but I will concede one or two in ALL partys are honourable. That is probably because they havenae been found oot yet ;o)
Posted by: Steve A, Independence is on its way on 12:45pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Mike
That would be the last thing they would do as it would provide an even playing field to the snp .
The onionists like a rigged game !
Mike
That would be the last thing they would do as it would provide an even playing field to the snp .
The onionists like a rigged game !
Posted by: Luigi, Aberdeen on 1:04pm Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]fair enough[/bold] wrote:
Here's what will happen. Labour will lose the UK General Election in 2010 and 10 Scottish MPs will lose their seats. SNP will hold their referendum on Independence after the UK election and will lose by a narrower margin than expected 54% - 46%. The SNP will win a second term (possibly in coalition with a minor party) The Tory Government will pass more powers to Holyrood on agreement that Scots MPs cannot vote on English matters. MSPs will be in charge of every aspect of Scottish life except defence and foreign policy. Scots MPs will be almost entirely irrelevant as in general MPs cannot vote on foreign policy - leaving only defence. The Scottish Labour Party will become more or less independent of the UK Labour Party. In the meantime, Europe will take more and more powers from Westminster and it will become obvious that Scotland loses out from not being able to represent themselves. The parties in Scotland will agree that there is a second independence referendum in 2015 and it will be won 68% - 32%[/quote] You could be right, fair enough,
After all, devolution required two referenda.
Possibly independence will require at least two referenda. Do not underestimate the dirty tricks of the unionists or, for that matter, the hesitancy of the Scottish people. Independence will happen, but it will take a few more years yet - there are many hard battles still to win.
fair enough wrote:
Here's what will happen. Labour will lose the UK General Election in 2010 and 10 Scottish MPs will lose their seats. SNP will hold their referendum on Independence after the UK election and will lose by a narrower margin than expected 54% - 46%. The SNP will win a second term (possibly in coalition with a minor party) The Tory Government will pass more powers to Holyrood on agreement that Scots MPs cannot vote on English matters. MSPs will be in charge of every aspect of Scottish life except defence and foreign policy. Scots MPs will be almost entirely irrelevant as in general MPs cannot vote on foreign policy - leaving only defence. The Scottish Labour Party will become more or less independent of the UK Labour Party. In the meantime, Europe will take more and more powers from Westminster and it will become obvious that Scotland loses out from not being able to represent themselves. The parties in Scotland will agree that there is a second independence referendum in 2015 and it will be won 68% - 32%
You could be right, fair enough,
After all, devolution required two referenda.
Possibly independence will require at least two referenda. Do not underestimate the dirty tricks of the unionists or, for that matter, the hesitancy of the Scottish people. Independence will happen, but it will take a few more years yet - there are many hard battles still to win.
Posted by: Red Etin on 1:07pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Join the "Scottish Labour Party":- just select Scotland as your country in the drop-down menu on the Labour website!
https://secure2.labo
ur.org.uk/join
HeeHeeHee
Join the "Scottish Labour Party":- just select Scotland as your country in the drop-down menu on the Labour website!
https://secure2.labo
ur.org.uk/join
HeeHeeHee
Posted by: Luigi, Aberdeen on 1:12pm Sun 3 Aug 08
A bloody leadership battle will be damaging, but Scottish Labour will not implode - yet.
If the SNP hold Glasgow East at the next election (and gain a few other seats), then Scottish Labour will implode shortly after. Most labourites are hanging on, still hoping for a reversal of fortunes in Glagow East. If it does not happen, it will be too much to take. Last chance saloon.
Glasgow East is now the key "marginal". It will be a hard battle for the SNP to hold this seat, but John Mason is certainly the right man to have in place.
A bloody leadership battle will be damaging, but Scottish Labour will not implode - yet.
If the SNP hold Glasgow East at the next election (and gain a few other seats), then Scottish Labour will implode shortly after. Most labourites are hanging on, still hoping for a reversal of fortunes in Glagow East. If it does not happen, it will be too much to take. Last chance saloon.
Glasgow East is now the key "marginal". It will be a hard battle for the SNP to hold this seat, but John Mason is certainly the right man to have in place.
Posted by: Jim, Irvine on 1:41pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Frank McBride/
You mention that a breakaway Scottish Labour Party would in essence be a new party therefore
would not carry any portion of NU Labour debt.
So I presume when the Independence for Scotland
comes we just need to call ourselves;
A NU Scottish Government?
Then all the debt that the Unionist will throw
at us on separation we can ignore!
Somehow I think a Scottish Labour Party if they had the guts to part would carry their share of the NU Labour Party debt. Still I suppose you can rely on Wendy for arranging
suitable Donations.
With Cathy Jamiesons permission.
Frank McBride/
You mention that a breakaway Scottish Labour Party would in essence be a new party therefore
would not carry any portion of NU Labour debt.
So I presume when the Independence for Scotland
comes we just need to call ourselves;
A NU Scottish Government?
Then all the debt that the Unionist will throw
at us on separation we can ignore!
Somehow I think a Scottish Labour Party if they had the guts to part would carry their share of the NU Labour Party debt. Still I suppose you can rely on Wendy for arranging
suitable Donations.
With Cathy Jamiesons permission.
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 3:00pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Luigi,
I don't think Glasgow East really says anything. It will be a specific case after a by-election. I think a better seat would be something like Falkirk. If the SNP takes Falkirk with a little to spare, Labour will be reduced to around 10 seats in and around Glasgow excluding Govan.
In this scenario Westminster ligitimacy will be called into question as most Scottish seats will be nationalist. Labour will then implode and may well declare UDI given they are out of the game and face a Tory government and an SNP heading into an independence referendum. Happy days:O)
To make immediate inroads into Glasgow it would be something like Glasgow North where the Libs took second and a lot of previous SNP votes from 2001. The SNP have a low base though but with polls the way they are and Lib tactical voting, who knows..
Luigi,
I don't think Glasgow East really says anything. It will be a specific case after a by-election. I think a better seat would be something like Falkirk. If the SNP takes Falkirk with a little to spare, Labour will be reduced to around 10 seats in and around Glasgow excluding Govan.
In this scenario Westminster ligitimacy will be called into question as most Scottish seats will be nationalist. Labour will then implode and may well declare UDI given they are out of the game and face a Tory government and an SNP heading into an independence referendum. Happy days:O)
To make immediate inroads into Glasgow it would be something like Glasgow North where the Libs took second and a lot of previous SNP votes from 2001. The SNP have a low base though but with polls the way they are and Lib tactical voting, who knows..
Posted by: Luigi, Aberdeen on 4:47pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Alex,
I agree that, on paper, there are certainly more important seats to win in the general election.
However, I do think that there is now a phsychological factor concerning Glasgow East that will impact Labour Party morale/cohesion. The third safest seat lost was an absolute disaster. Glasgow East was the jewel in the Labour crown. They threw everything at the by-election, but still lost. If there was ever a "Stalingrad" moment for Labour, this was it. They really do have to re-take it, or they are screwed. Well, they are anyway, but still I think this could be the implosion trigger. We'll find out soon enough.
Alex,
I agree that, on paper, there are certainly more important seats to win in the general election.
However, I do think that there is now a phsychological factor concerning Glasgow East that will impact Labour Party morale/cohesion. The third safest seat lost was an absolute disaster. Glasgow East was the jewel in the Labour crown. They threw everything at the by-election, but still lost. If there was ever a "Stalingrad" moment for Labour, this was it. They really do have to re-take it, or they are screwed. Well, they are anyway, but still I think this could be the implosion trigger. We'll find out soon enough.
Posted by: Luigi, Aberdeen on 6:27pm Sun 3 Aug 08
John Gall[quote]The SNP at last are reaping the benefit of being true to Scotland through thick and thin.[/quote]They are also reaping the benefit of Scottish Labour politicians being thick.
John Gall
The SNP at last are reaping the benefit of being true to Scotland through thick and thin.
They are also reaping the benefit of Scottish Labour politicians being thick.
Posted by: nostress, grangemouth on 7:38pm Sun 3 Aug 08
McCabe is a rat of the first order! Hasn't the balls to call it fiscal independence and is really just moaning about internal resentments within Labour. Like the rest of his crew, he never gave a **** about Scotland in all the time he had in power as Finance Minister and was more concerned about fattening his wallet with all the public subsidies going. Hell mend him and the corrupt, amoral bunch of tossers who support Labour.
McCabe is a rat of the first order! Hasn't the balls to call it fiscal independence and is really just moaning about internal resentments within Labour. Like the rest of his crew, he never gave a **** about Scotland in all the time he had in power as Finance Minister and was more concerned about fattening his wallet with all the public subsidies going. Hell mend him and the corrupt, amoral bunch of tossers who support Labour.
Posted by: Steve A, Independence is on its way on 8:06pm Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]nostress[/bold] wrote:
McCabe is a rat of the first order! Hasn't the balls to call it fiscal independence and is really just moaning about internal resentments within Labour. Like the rest of his crew, he never gave a **** about Scotland in all the time he had in power as Finance Minister and was more concerned about fattening his wallet with all the public subsidies going. Hell mend him and the corrupt, amoral bunch of tossers who support Labour.[/quote] AYE
As another poster said ,"if labour won Glasgow east he would have the first one out the trap shouting about the liebour fightback "
What a nob-end !
nostress wrote:
McCabe is a rat of the first order! Hasn't the balls to call it fiscal independence and is really just moaning about internal resentments within Labour. Like the rest of his crew, he never gave a **** about Scotland in all the time he had in power as Finance Minister and was more concerned about fattening his wallet with all the public subsidies going. Hell mend him and the corrupt, amoral bunch of tossers who support Labour.
AYE
As another poster said ,"if labour won Glasgow east he would have the first one out the trap shouting about the liebour fightback "
What a nob-end !
Posted by: ptdoug, Ystad on 9:33pm Sun 3 Aug 08
WHO WOULD YOU PREFER TO HAVE AS SCOTLANDS CLOSEST NEIGHBOURS, GEOGRAPHICLY SPEAKING?
Vote in the poll at;
www.cybernatcentral.
blogspot.com
Newborn CyberNat hangout... check it out.
it's a bit cut'n'paste as far as content is concerned, at the moment, as I have been concentrating on the layout.... but hopefully still interesting.
Vote in the Poll...(please) :-0
WHO WOULD YOU PREFER TO HAVE AS SCOTLANDS CLOSEST NEIGHBOURS, GEOGRAPHICLY SPEAKING?
Vote in the poll at;
www.cybernatcentral.
blogspot.com
Newborn CyberNat hangout... check it out.
it's a bit cut'n'paste as far as content is concerned, at the moment, as I have been concentrating on the layout.... but hopefully still interesting.
Vote in the Poll...(please) :-0
Posted by: Luigi, Aberdeen on 9:50pm Sun 3 Aug 08
ptdoug,
I won't bother voting because I am very happy with England as our closest neighbour. I just want Scotland to live in a nice house next door, rather than the creaky shed by the oiltank at the foot of England's garden.
ptdoug,
I won't bother voting because I am very happy with England as our closest neighbour. I just want Scotland to live in a nice house next door, rather than the creaky shed by the oiltank at the foot of England's garden.
Posted by: girfut, thebigisland on 9:52pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Some of you are postulating on timetables etc.
Should a 2010 election return 30+ snp members, that on its own makes Scotland an independent country.A subsequent referendum would be merely a rubber stamp . Negotiations commence.In a 2011 election for the Holyrood parliament all candidates could and would be required to be independent or represent Scottish based and registered parties. Slab/nuLab have a problem and the clock is not on their side.
Some of you are postulating on timetables etc.
Should a 2010 election return 30+ snp members, that on its own makes Scotland an independent country.A subsequent referendum would be merely a rubber stamp . Negotiations commence.In a 2011 election for the Holyrood parliament all candidates could and would be required to be independent or represent Scottish based and registered parties. Slab/nuLab have a problem and the clock is not on their side.
Posted by: ptdoug, Ystad on 10:53pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Luigi...
Then vote for England!
I had the first vote and voted for The English.
Having lived in England, married an English lass and have kids that are genuinely happy to support both Scotland AND England in football competitions...(actu
aly my daughter Shannon was born in Dublin and supports Ireland)...I would want no other people as our immeadiate neighbours.
I have nothing but warmth and respect for the English people.
They are second to none for humour, comedians and the ability to laugh at themselves... from John Cleese and the pythons to The Goons and Ali-G...
Music?... Forget about it.... The Stones, Beatles, Floyd,... Clash, Sex Pistols, Elvis Costello... Pulp, The Verve, Oasis, Blur Suede....Kaiser Chiefs, Subways, Hard-Fi, British Sea Power, The Killers, The Libertines, Sunshine Underground...
TV shows from The Sweeney to Doctor Who, Top Gear to A Question of Sport, Fawlty Towers to Some Mothers do 'ave Them. Top of the Pops to Jools Holland....
Sports... ooooh... this bits painful... Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea.... they do kick **** at football and it's great to watch..
Across the spectrum England has given us so much, and I'm not talking about politics here, I'm just talking everyday English folk...
I have nothing but admiration and i'm so glad to have them nextdoor.
So go on and vote ...
www.cybernatcentral.
blogspot.com
Luigi...
Then vote for England!
I had the first vote and voted for The English.
Having lived in England, married an English lass and have kids that are genuinely happy to support both Scotland AND England in football competitions...(actu
aly my daughter Shannon was born in Dublin and supports Ireland)...I would want no other people as our immeadiate neighbours.
I have nothing but warmth and respect for the English people.
They are second to none for humour, comedians and the ability to laugh at themselves... from John Cleese and the pythons to The Goons and Ali-G...
Music?... Forget about it.... The Stones, Beatles, Floyd,... Clash, Sex Pistols, Elvis Costello... Pulp, The Verve, Oasis, Blur Suede....Kaiser Chiefs, Subways, Hard-Fi, British Sea Power, The Killers, The Libertines, Sunshine Underground...
TV shows from The Sweeney to Doctor Who, Top Gear to A Question of Sport, Fawlty Towers to Some Mothers do 'ave Them. Top of the Pops to Jools Holland....
Sports... ooooh... this bits painful... Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea.... they do kick **** at football and it's great to watch..
Across the spectrum England has given us so much, and I'm not talking about politics here, I'm just talking everyday English folk...
I have nothing but admiration and i'm so glad to have them nextdoor.
So go on and vote ...
www.cybernatcentral.
blogspot.com
Posted by: stonehaven on 11:01pm Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Rab The Ranter[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]albagirl[/bold] wrote:
i have no sympathy for anyone in the liebour party. They go hand in hand with their westminster colleagues in exploiting scotland for their own corrupt, self serving ends, entrenched in their union.[/quote] I am always saddened at the way SNP party hacks genuinely believe they are morally “unapproachable”.
I hate to be the barer of bad tidings, but I am afraid your glorious Eck is as big a slime ball as each and every other politician who aspires to rule.
These people are self seeking, self important jumped up wee naebuddys.
They are devalued politicians in a devalued parliament in a devalued democracy.
[bold]VERMIN THE LOT![/bold] [/quote] Rab
You are an A1 t0sser!
Rab The Ranter wrote:
albagirl wrote:
i have no sympathy for anyone in the liebour party. They go hand in hand with their westminster colleagues in exploiting scotland for their own corrupt, self serving ends, entrenched in their union.
I am always saddened at the way SNP party hacks genuinely believe they are morally “unapproachable”.
I hate to be the barer of bad tidings, but I am afraid your glorious Eck is as big a slime ball as each and every other politician who aspires to rule.
These people are self seeking, self important jumped up wee naebuddys.
They are devalued politicians in a devalued parliament in a devalued democracy.
VERMIN THE LOT!
Rab
You are an A1 t0sser!
Posted by: ian hamilton, glasgow on 9:22am Mon 4 Aug 08
well done mccabe. the party (and myself) might feel very uncomfortable with what he says but there is no point in staggering down the same old road, deaf and blind to the needs of the people of scotland. That is where its at now, Holyrood represents Scottish opinion and the voters act accordingly.The Party in London now articulates an anti scottish sentiment masked as being 'pro british, pro labour. we have seen through it all now, scottish people are sick to the back teeth of the political combatants fighting their power wars inventing the SNP and Nationalsim as ' the enemy' when aour country is desperately in need of a new direction.
Can i be a 'Nationalist Socialist?' I feel like one now, the chattering 'Scottish'political classes in London have completed my transformation.
well done mccabe. the party (and myself) might feel very uncomfortable with what he says but there is no point in staggering down the same old road, deaf and blind to the needs of the people of scotland. That is where its at now, Holyrood represents Scottish opinion and the voters act accordingly.The Party in London now articulates an anti scottish sentiment masked as being 'pro british, pro labour. we have seen through it all now, scottish people are sick to the back teeth of the political combatants fighting their power wars inventing the SNP and Nationalsim as ' the enemy' when aour country is desperately in need of a new direction.
Can i be a 'Nationalist Socialist?' I feel like one now, the chattering 'Scottish'political classes in London have completed my transformation.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 5:09pm Tue 5 Aug 08
Rab the Runt[quote]These people are self seeking, self important jumped up wee naebuddys[/quote]As long as we are anybody but you!
Rab the Runt
These people are self seeking, self important jumped up wee naebuddys
As long as we are anybody but you!
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